An Idea to Find Compromise on Downvotes

valued-customer 4 days ago

"• We have 1 Reward Pool that is impacted by downvotes aka HIVE Hardcore.
"• We have 1 "small" Reward Pool that does not get impacted by downvotes aka HIVE Lite.
"• The downvote free reward pool will be much smaller (this reward pool is VERY risky because it cannot be allocated by stakeholders).
"• There is no change to the inflation rate."

Ned gave a presentation in Korea before everything went south, and introduced (or introduced to me) the idea of communities. Some of the things he said led me to believe communities would by like the Lite Hive you propose. Not necessarily without DV's, but communities could police their own stake by determining how DV's applied or did not apply in that community.

I was giddily enthusiastic for communities per that understanding, but what we got is just interest groups, with zero ability to demonstrate better ways (or attempted better ways) to manage a rewards pool. I would really like to see communities in the way I understood Ned to present them. It would enable Hive to test out different limitations on DV's, on staking, on rewarding authors, curators, and all sorts of things. If one really stood out and started growing, Hive could take note and consider adopting the management methods that were working so well.

That being said, I kinda like your idea, but wonder where how the Lite rewards pool is apportioned? As I understood communities, the stake of the members was proportional to the size of the rewards pool the community would manage. In your description you don't mention how the Lite pool would be apportioned from the legacy pool, only that it would be small. Even at that I think it would serve as a good relief valve for folks that didn't like being flagged, but also didn't want to leave Hive for Blurt or web2 platforms. Any terrible downsides, like all the plagiarists, circle jerkers, and botters jumping into the Lite pool quickly draining it, would be limited to that lesser portion of the inflation issued, which would be a good security wall against the platform taking a fatal hit. It might also be very educational for folks that think DV's are only negative and shouldn't exist at all if that happened and their votes given and received were suddenly worthless.

I really like that you're thinking about the issues and coming up with new ideas to reduce the negative impacts they have on users. There are very broad differences between how folks see Hive. I see it primarily as a social media platform where people can say anything about anybody or anything, and enables all the existentially necessary benefits of free speech. I think people with substantial stake in Hive see it primarily as an investment vehicle. These views aren't mutually exclusive, or don't have to be. I don't trust anything about money because I've been repeatedly defrauded of >$1M by a pretty broad range of actors, from governments to people I would take a bullet for even after they betrayed me for money. Blood is thicker than the piss. So, while I tend not to view Hive as an investment vehicle, I do understand that most people have pecuniary interests, and strive to keep that in mind when relating to them and their interests.

Hive has some significant issues that have plagued it since the platform advented in 2016, and it's going to take innovative thinking to turn some of those issues around if Hive is to even survive, much less thrive. I really appreciate you giving it thought, and speaking freely to share that thought with us all, even though free speech has downsides and expressing novel ideas often visits their authors with demonstrations of those downsides.

Thanks!

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hurtlocker 4 days ago (edited)

This comment alone is better than some posts on HIVE. I gave it a 100% upvote for that reason but also I like talking to you LOL..... as long as we are not talking about downvotes I really enjoy our conversations 😅

And to be fair, talking about downvotes kind of sucks regardless of who I am talking to.

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antisocialist 4 days ago

@valued-customer took many more arrows that I was willing to take, he continued speaking truth even after I accepted the futility of it.

What was that fella's name that used his girlfriend's account to post?
He was amusing.
@lucylin
I had to look through old comments to find it.

You missed something there, HL, he was talented.

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valued-customer 3 days ago

LOL lucylin was hilarious.

Didn't he just move to Blurt? I thought he advertised it a couple times, before he quit coming back.

I am a bit slow, which is why I was with my ex for 22 years, instead of 22 months. After all that, being abused on Hive isn't too terrible in comparison.

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antisocialist 3 days ago

I don't know, I don't blurt, my keys didn't work when it launched, potentially because of public statements that I had made about the dev.

IF he is still there, he should come back, imo.

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valued-customer 3 days ago

statements that I had made about the dev.

I have had some discussions with folks there, and am not drawn to that pool of talent, shall we say.

I bet Lucy was as intolerable there as he was here. He should come back, though. Hive is desperately short of good trolls. Spammers are everywhere. Trolls not so much.

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3 votes

valued-customer 3 days ago

"...talking about downvotes kind of sucks..."

People take their money real personal. I try not to, because it's better for me not to, but that's the best I can do with the subject. It's still gonna rile people up.

I also enjoy talking with you. You say it straight, and I'm never going to learn anything from someone that doesn't. You also have self respect, so speak words you won't regret later, and that makes you easy to talk to. I like that you care about Hive. I care about Hive, too. I feel this platform has built in functions that can change the world, but it has flaws that keep those functions from being usable. That's why I keep trying to gain agreement regarding them so that enough people can set to finding a way to get Hive on the right track. All three of us here, including Antisocialist, have that same interest.

It's kind of funny we have such divergent views that will make it difficult to come to agreement about these things. However, if we can manage to do so, we'll have covered the gamut of arguments against what we agree on and will have an easier time of convincing others.

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hurtlocker 3 days ago

People take their money real personal.

But here is my issue when talking to you about this. You are very smart. You have deep understanding of the incentive structures on HIVE; this is VERY uncommon.

You know that the person who receives an upvote before a payout has not received anything until the post is paid out. The "money" is still in the reward pool. We do not even know what the exact payout will be until it is paid out. Until a reward is paid out, that money belongs to the reward pool. Unfortunately the reward pool is much more like socialism than capitalism.

I think you are fundamentally correct about downvotes in a lot of ways. But I also think you have had a lot of bad experiences watching downvotes used in the wrong ways and you project a lot of that on me.

But I will give you an example of why my recent downvote was not as bad as you think. So this Karen account keeps posting and getting upvoted. Even after declining rewards. Why? These are auto upvotes from the Steem days. So people who get auto upvotes are able to do things other accounts cannot. In a normal world without auto upvotes, as soon as the Karen account started dumping years ago, she would stop getting upvotes.

We cannot realistically stop auto upvotes. Like it is impossible. So I think we need downvotes. I used to downvote for a lot of reasons but now overtime I just downvote based on KE. There are exceptions but still. KE is very objective. And the person already got paid. They are selling the rewards they earned, even if they were auto upvotes. But if stakeholder(s) do not want someone getting rewards anymore because the person does not invest in the ecosystem, I think that is legitimate. And, if that person was being upvoted by active accounts her getting downvoted forever is way less likely.

There is an issue with HIVE which is people do not really understand what we are dealing with. HIVE cannot function if people only want to maximize returns. On the flip side, if people do not focus on making money and only focus on doing good, HIVE cannot function either.

So the majority of stake needs to operate in a way where we are trying to make profits and we are trying to do good at the same time.

People on HIVE that only do good are not very effective. And people who try to only make money are not very effective.

People who try to do both are well known but not always popular like they should be.

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hurtlocker 3 days ago

@valued-customer I know I said I didn't want to talk about downvotes with you anymore, but you went there and I was just like, who cares 🤣

I don't mind talking about downvotes. I just don't like when I get thrown into a bucket where I am just the same as every other "downvoter." Like you never asked me for a detailed explanation on why I think that account should not get rewards. Instead you said my use of the downvote in that case was abuse. It is very unlike you when I normally talk to you for you to interact with me that way.

You are always welcome to lobby for me to remove my downvote on another user. I think that is totally fine. You might do a better job than the person who is freaking out tbh. Most people get downvoted and create a situation where it is way worse. What this Karen account did is a great example of making it worse.

On the flip side, there are accounts that get downvoted that do not get zeroed out forever. It happens more than you would think. It is just the people who are the loudest that get the most attention.

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antisocialist 5 days ago

Bots are the reason you couldn't do that.
Bots have ruined most of the gaming aspects of this game as originally designed.
The ninjamine is really what killed it, but the bots were how.

Posting bots ahd curating bots would simply overwhelm the slices of the pie, leaving little for others.

Hive is doing much better since the fork.
Before, these conversations would not have been allowed.
Since the fork, tptb have taken a mostly hands off approach.
Character assassination and emotional meltdowns are hard to come back from, but other than that, it's pretty hard to get on the cancel lists.
Presuming 'good' content.

I see you are not in the 'official' discord: https://discord.gg/HaG6ByhC.
It's a good place to lurk, you could get interviewed on the weekly show, if you wanted to do that, otherwise it's mostly me and a few others day to day.
Lots of folks looking for their names to speak up.
Most days it's pretty quiet.
The show brings some in, but we had those years ago in abundance and they all fell off due to chain drama, mostly.

The longer I watch this game play out, the more convinced I am that we should have let the rules change us rather than changing the rules to suit tptb.

The flag wars would have been epic, but the n2 could have been defended, its lottery aspects made curation a game well worth playing.
Instead we let the rules be dictated to us by 'bad' actors.

Look at m-t's reports and ask yourself why he got ran off.
The power mongers were much more active before the fork.

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4 votes

valued-customer 4 days ago

these conversations would not have been allowed.

I have not shrank from having them - but I did pay a heavy price for speaking freely when the flag wars turned into spam wars.

"The ninjamine is really what killed it..."

I think the Founder's stake simply wasn't properly spent. Dan and Ned neither one stepped up and fixed the problems they saw they had created, which that stake allowed them to do. Ned endured longer than Dan, but in the end both of them slithered off and left the bag we are trying to hold together ripped and torn. As Hurt mentions above, the love of money does bad things to people.

I see that Hive has the necessary functionality to serve as the infrastructure of voluntarist government, but the mistakes coded in the founders left behind them continue to make that potential impossible to employ. I confess it gets discouraging after 8 years, and sometimes I almost give up expecting folks that can do anything about it to ever do so. The worst flaw coded into Hive is the financial incentive not to fix the misaligned financial incentives. HF28 demonstrated that clearly by misaligning them even more. Them as have get more and them as don't get less, even as the pile shrinks until no one has anything. I honestly can't see altruism surmounting the wall between Hive and dominance of the social media sector that would turn that altruism into the greatest profit margin the world has ever seen. Cash is king. Soon the king will be dead, and no one will cry 'Long live the king!'

I'll give up then.

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antisocialist 4 days ago

I think the Founder's stake simply wasn't properly spent.

Most of the reference there was to those that got votes from the ninjamine, plenty of those folks still here doing things to insure that we don't succeed, nor fail to quickly.

Until that malign influence leaves the positions of power, it's unlikely for us to see any success.
Barring any coded breakthroughs I'm unaware of.
The right dapp could moonshot us.

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valued-customer 3 days ago

"...votes from the ninjamine..."

Sure. Once when I was arguing with them you don't name, in the midst of being flagged mercilessly for months, Dan appeared out of nowhere (I think he'd left the platform by then) and stomped on the BS, and boated me up out of the dust. So I even got one of them ninjamine votes once, but I don't think it's caused me to be a malign influence. Has it?

Anyway, the founders could have seized unitary control and fixed the problems that had become apparent with plutocratic governance, curation rewards, automated voting, and etc, but didn't have the spine. There'd have been screeching, but if they fixed problems and let governance revert to not them, then all the screeching would move to the horrible fixes to all the profitable mistakes they'd coded in when they were still young and naive, and it would have been entertaining to listen to Heimindanger drunkenly rant at them. Hive has the code to do great things, but the ability of any substantial stakeholder to tax 100% of the income of a lesser stakeholder indefinitely just utterly destroys any ability to do anything unapproved by whales.

And don't tell me to stop being poor. That's not the answer. The answer is reasonable management of DV's and that taxing authority. Your right to do what you want with your stake ends at my wallet - unless I'm violating the NAP by plagiarizing, circle-jerking, or the like. DV's don't even work on spam, because spam isn't seeking rewards. Other tools need employing for jobs that DV's can't do. There aren't other, better tools, because flags suit flaggots for purposes they're duplicitous about, so they don't want to change any of that. We have misaligned incentives in the code that make offers they don't refuse to folks that are willing to do things contrary to the advancement of Hive, such as flag ~1M users off the platform, for example.

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antisocialist 3 days ago

I still think that the cabal(the irl one, not the hive one) running things gave orders to scuttle the boat.
The only evidence I have of that is the actions of others.

IF the destination is the same, it doesn't matter if an order was given and obeyed, or not.
We still flounder as a result of intentional changes we didn't ask for and are not helping.

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valued-customer 2 days ago (edited)

Hive is very dangerous to tyrants and overlords. It contains the means to administer voluntarist government. Every vote counts, and can't be stuffed in a ballot box if no one real cast it (or this could be certified with oracles). These are existential threats to corrupt vermin that keep their power through vote fraud, through dumbing down their constituents, and through using gangs of armed thugs to force people to do what's good for them, or else.

If most people ever realized they could themselves decide what rules are just, and that they could pay for those things they wanted, but not for murdering brown people around the world, well crappy slavery-as-a-service would be obsolete overnight.

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galenkp 5 days ago

I stopped explaining as no explanation is ever going to be good enough for the other person and especially with the particular person who whined today who has done nothing but extract from the reward pool and has never increased stake. A KE of 46.68 tells the story pretty clearly.

Anyway, that's about it. Would usually not comment on Hive about downvoting as there's no point, it's a free environment and just as someone has the right to extract and take advantage of the reward pool, others have the right to downvote for that reason.

Enough said. I was going to comment this to you on Discord, but I couldn't fucken find you there.

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hurtlocker 5 days ago (edited)

it's a free environment and just as someone has the right to extract and take advantage of the reward pool, others have the right to downvote for that reason.

I agree with this 100%

I'm fairly convinced the "leave a comment" request is just a lite scam. That standard forces the minority of people who downvote to waste time leaving comments that provide little value. A lot of times leaving a comment just creates a dumpster fire and makes HIVE more toxic if anything.

I deleted my old discord and made a new one when I started downvoting because there is no way I was going to handle the constant DMs trying to lobby me to remove downvotes.

I’m only in OCDB discord now. I’m really only in there to learn more about curating from the people there.

I mostly just talk on HIVE now. If I find your account on discord I’ll send you a request but I don’t have discord open as much as I used to.

Thanks for leaving a comment and showing support as I go down this path of learning about downvotes. It has been very weird and is draining at times!

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galenkp 5 days ago (edited)

Yeah, fair enough I used to get DM's like that, still do. I ignore them all, never respond or engage. No point to it. I don't use Discord much, only to communicate in a small group a few of us have going on, we talk about non-hive stuff mostly and it's quite sporadic at best really.

I sometimes also get Hive people dropping demands for an explanation on something or other; depending on how they "ask" I'll give them a short response but mostly they're demanding and rude so they get nothing.

Edit: Sorry, edited a couple typos out. Lol. (I see you did the same.)

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hurtlocker 5 days ago

No worries on the edit 😆. I wish multiple edits didn’t have so many notifications. If I see a typo I cant help myself sometimes 😅

In an effort to practice self control, I will not edit this comment regardless of how many typos I see later 😄

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galenkp 5 days ago

If I see a typo I cant help myself sometimes

If I see a typo I can't help myself all the time! 🤣

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hurtlocker 5 days ago

Kudos to you for even putting up with a little bit of that nonsense 🤣

I just assumed the discord DMs would get insane when I started downvoting because back when I had only a little HIVE, people would regularly DM me in discord for upvotes and it was exhausting 😅

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galenkp 5 days ago

That's what happened although it soon slows down when literally zero response happens.

For several years I also got a lot of DM's requesting money, all from Nigeria. One asked me for money to buy a bigger TV for her gaming console "business" as the competitor down the road had a better TV and she was losing "business." I recall my response being very long, scathing and rather brutal.

I don't get requests like that much these days but unless I've communicated on Hive with someone for a long time, favourably, I don't respond to DM's. I have a really nice (small) group of people I communicate with in Threema and Whatsapp (most know my address and I theirs as we swap stuff), and that's one of my biggest benefits from Hive - they're good people.

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hurtlocker 5 days ago

I have given interest free loans to people on HIVE and some of them never even paid me back. I don't do anything like that anymore because I just don't have the bandwidth to keep up with it. I only loaned to friendly aquiantensces anyways so I was always open to never getting paid back.

Lots of good people on HIVE. It's actually not that hard to find good people here. That being said, a lot of people on HIVE trust when there really doesn't need to be trust and that creates a lot of problems imo.

The reward pool is easy to access and a lot of people view it as free money. It makes sense so many scammers pop up here and it makes sense “good” people get greedy and start scamming.

I’m not going to do that though. I try to watch for greed when it starts impacting me because greed can become very consuming and is particularly good at changing people in a bad way without them even noticing.

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galenkp 5 days ago

I've done the same, for the right reason with no repayment also and I'm ok with that because it helped them and they were deserving.

On the reward pool, yep exactly, like the user from earlier today, once she got some autos the floodgates opened and now feel entitled to those rewards from an auto that doesn't even read or engage. It becomes a habit and that's ok, freedom for all right? Including the freedom for others to do as they please with their own stake, built the hard way.

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davideownzall 3 days ago

As you say, from an investor point of view, it makes sense to downvote whoever extract, on the other hand who stakes "protects" your investment from dumping on market his rewards...

I gotta say if you want to do downvote cleanup, the only way would be to make a total anonymous account, power up a fair amount of hive without being tracked and start cleaning... Don't even bother open notifications, just downvote and go on, like in a bubble

Regarding the 2 pools, it's not a bad idea, the lite one could be good to onboard people as it would look "rainbow social" or make content aimed to attract web2 users without hassle of not being enough original or personal, but it would open room for any kind of stuff, Ai, copy paste, etc... Would that be bad? Point of views, if I read a new medicine discovered to cure my illness, I'd say the post is worth more than a 0,01$ even if it's a plagiarized article, because otherwise I wouldn't get to know it, so it provided value to me

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hurtlocker 3 days ago

I gotta say if you want to do downvote cleanup, the only way would be to make a total anonymous account, power up a fair amount of hive without being tracked and start cleaning... Don't even bother open notifications, just downvote and go on, like in a bubble

I realize what I am about to say sounds pretentious but, I actually have considered this already. I got real close to spinning one up a few times. There is always the option I will do this but because of how I am I would eventually tell people it is me which would defeat the whole purpose 🤣. Outside of that, I did not create an account that does this for a 3 reasons:

I think one key issue with my @antiabuse1 accounts is the curators were anonymous. HIVE is inherently intimate so when things happen with anonymous accounts or are done automatically it causes many people do weird stuff.
I think someone is going to do it anyways. There are light versions of these accounts now. Anyone can do it and we cannot stop it because there are so many services that let people make free accounts. There are anonymous accounts that upvote so it is a natural reaction for people to create the anonymous accounts that downvote.
I would not be able to easily profit off an account that does this. The easy answer would be to upvote HBD Comments. A downvote project supporting HBD stabilizer would be a natural fit but it works against my CURRENT curation objectives.

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davideownzall 3 days ago

Lol well yea spoil who it is defeat the purpose for sure

In the end it's like real world, it's not white or black, there is not a right or wrong way to do it, but a shade of greys, you gotta evaluate what you think is the best, mix up things, balance out... And know that you can't make everyone happy😂

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blitzzzz 4 days ago

Your plan sounds complicated tbh. I think I'll have to read it again properly tomorrow in the day when I'm more awake.

I do think you make a good point about extractors and the spammer who doesn't power down. Hard to say who is better/worse/lesser of two evils.

For now, I'm interested in those super high KE (that person with >46 KE 😱) you're targeting and quite bemused by their reactions and justifications. Is there any kind of tool you're using to downvote those? Or can I just follow your auto(down)votes trail in some way?

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antisocialist 4 days ago

Hive.vote allows you to follow up and downvote trails.
It uses hivesigner, which has been safe to put your keys into.

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hurtlocker 4 days ago

Yea it may literally be impossible to do. Who knows.

I was using Hive Analytics before but it is no longer funded. The power down checker from louis88 will show you people with high KE also https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@louis88/introducing-hive-power-down-checker-see-all-power-downs-happen-in-real-time

A lot of accounts have high KE so usually I just come across someone who has a high KE. Hopefully one day it will not be so common 😅

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nathen007 4 days ago

Don't overtook things. Just don't whatever your intuition tells you is right for YOU.

There's always going to be drama on a platform that means and is used slightly different by every individual user. This is the beauty of Hive but with that uniqueness, which is a huge positive, there will be a flipping which is that there will never be 100% concensus and people will fall out over this.
Listen to opinions and points of view but be your own man and do it your way!

Its nice to actually have someone who gives a fuck and sees the potential so best wishes, especially with your new community. We need real a real finance community rather than the shilling shit show that's Leo!

Authenticity is all that counts to me, and it seems you have it bucketloads :-)

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valued-customer 4 days ago

We need real a real finance community rather than the shilling shit show that's Leo!

☝️

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hurtlocker 4 days ago

There is always going to be some drama but I think it really depends on why there is drama on if we should be ok with it or not.

A lot of the drama on HIVE right now seems like people are just mad. I mean, I see that a lot in real life right now too. People are just mad irl and HIVE because things are not going the way everyone hoped.

Also a lot of HIVE drama revolves around people not being informed on how HIVE works. Like people think the reward pool is their own money and it is money that just comes out of thin air because someone curated them. It is a REWARD pool. It is structured like a giveaway but people act like they own it so it creates a lot of friction.

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gwajnberg 5 days ago

I think that the term abuse is subjective so yeah you should continue to do whatever you are doing.
I am still slow coming back to my activity after some time off from the blockchain…need to be back on the watch! The good and bad 😅

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dd1100 3 days ago

if ever the plan succeeded of putting another HIVE in the form of HIVElite, This looks like simple but i feel it is lots of work to be done. Its like you are cutting the power core of a system to distribute to another newly form system. yeah, the downvoting thing really is nuisance in onboarding new users though. Why is it getting hard noh? I thought HIVIng should be fun.

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karenb54 4 days ago

I am not a bad person, so please don't paint me as one. I will help anyone on here if they need it. I wouldn't spend 9 years on here if I didn't like it. All I've asked is why downvote someone for 3 years and down vote every single post, I've tried being nice, I've tried being tough but nothing would get him to talk to me. He has now spoke up saying that my posts aren't good enough when I was told when I first started with Steemit to write what you want so I write about me, my health problems, my turtles, our reef tank, our parrot my oldest daughters problems such as ADHD,ODD and Aspergers but seems nothing I wrote about is good enough for him. My KE ( which I've never heard of until I can't back after nearly a year away) due to the constant downvotes would be coming down as I wrote a post saying I was coming back toto grow my account but seems I was doing that wrong to. Hive if for everyone asling as you have lots of money to invest the rest of us are useless.

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