RE: An Idea to Find Compromise on Downvotes

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RE: An Idea to Find Compromise on Downvotes

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valued-customer in #hive • 4 days ago

"• We have 1 Reward Pool that is impacted by downvotes aka HIVE Hardcore.
"• We have 1 "small" Reward Pool that does not get impacted by downvotes aka HIVE Lite.
"• The downvote free reward pool will be much smaller (this reward pool is VERY risky because it cannot be allocated by stakeholders).
"• There is no change to the inflation rate."

Ned gave a presentation in Korea before everything went south, and introduced (or introduced to me) the idea of communities. Some of the things he said led me to believe communities would by like the Lite Hive you propose. Not necessarily without DV's, but communities could police their own stake by determining how DV's applied or did not apply in that community.

I was giddily enthusiastic for communities per that understanding, but what we got is just interest groups, with zero ability to demonstrate better ways (or attempted better ways) to manage a rewards pool. I would really like to see communities in the way I understood Ned to present them. It would enable Hive to test out different limitations on DV's, on staking, on rewarding authors, curators, and all sorts of things. If one really stood out and started growing, Hive could take note and consider adopting the management methods that were working so well.

That being said, I kinda like your idea, but wonder where how the Lite rewards pool is apportioned? As I understood communities, the stake of the members was proportional to the size of the rewards pool the community would manage. In your description you don't mention how the Lite pool would be apportioned from the legacy pool, only that it would be small. Even at that I think it would serve as a good relief valve for folks that didn't like being flagged, but also didn't want to leave Hive for Blurt or web2 platforms. Any terrible downsides, like all the plagiarists, circle jerkers, and botters jumping into the Lite pool quickly draining it, would be limited to that lesser portion of the inflation issued, which would be a good security wall against the platform taking a fatal hit. It might also be very educational for folks that think DV's are only negative and shouldn't exist at all if that happened and their votes given and received were suddenly worthless.

I really like that you're thinking about the issues and coming up with new ideas to reduce the negative impacts they have on users. There are very broad differences between how folks see Hive. I see it primarily as a social media platform where people can say anything about anybody or anything, and enables all the existentially necessary benefits of free speech. I think people with substantial stake in Hive see it primarily as an investment vehicle. These views aren't mutually exclusive, or don't have to be. I don't trust anything about money because I've been repeatedly defrauded of >$1M by a pretty broad range of actors, from governments to people I would take a bullet for even after they betrayed me for money. Blood is thicker than the piss. So, while I tend not to view Hive as an investment vehicle, I do understand that most people have pecuniary interests, and strive to keep that in mind when relating to them and their interests.

Hive has some significant issues that have plagued it since the platform advented in 2016, and it's going to take innovative thinking to turn some of those issues around if Hive is to even survive, much less thrive. I really appreciate you giving it thought, and speaking freely to share that thought with us all, even though free speech has downsides and expressing novel ideas often visits their authors with demonstrations of those downsides.

Thanks!

4 days ago in #hive by valued-customer

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hurtlocker 4 days ago (edited)

This comment alone is better than some posts on HIVE. I gave it a 100% upvote for that reason but also I like talking to you LOL..... as long as we are not talking about downvotes I really enjoy our conversations 😅

And to be fair, talking about downvotes kind of sucks regardless of who I am talking to.

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antisocialist 4 days ago

@valued-customer took many more arrows that I was willing to take, he continued speaking truth even after I accepted the futility of it.

What was that fella's name that used his girlfriend's account to post?
He was amusing.
@lucylin
I had to look through old comments to find it.

You missed something there, HL, he was talented.

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valued-customer 3 days ago

LOL lucylin was hilarious.

Didn't he just move to Blurt? I thought he advertised it a couple times, before he quit coming back.

I am a bit slow, which is why I was with my ex for 22 years, instead of 22 months. After all that, being abused on Hive isn't too terrible in comparison.

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antisocialist 3 days ago

I don't know, I don't blurt, my keys didn't work when it launched, potentially because of public statements that I had made about the dev.

IF he is still there, he should come back, imo.

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valued-customer 3 days ago

statements that I had made about the dev.

I have had some discussions with folks there, and am not drawn to that pool of talent, shall we say.

I bet Lucy was as intolerable there as he was here. He should come back, though. Hive is desperately short of good trolls. Spammers are everywhere. Trolls not so much.

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valued-customer 3 days ago

"...talking about downvotes kind of sucks..."

People take their money real personal. I try not to, because it's better for me not to, but that's the best I can do with the subject. It's still gonna rile people up.

I also enjoy talking with you. You say it straight, and I'm never going to learn anything from someone that doesn't. You also have self respect, so speak words you won't regret later, and that makes you easy to talk to. I like that you care about Hive. I care about Hive, too. I feel this platform has built in functions that can change the world, but it has flaws that keep those functions from being usable. That's why I keep trying to gain agreement regarding them so that enough people can set to finding a way to get Hive on the right track. All three of us here, including Antisocialist, have that same interest.

It's kind of funny we have such divergent views that will make it difficult to come to agreement about these things. However, if we can manage to do so, we'll have covered the gamut of arguments against what we agree on and will have an easier time of convincing others.

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hurtlocker 3 days ago

People take their money real personal.

But here is my issue when talking to you about this. You are very smart. You have deep understanding of the incentive structures on HIVE; this is VERY uncommon.

You know that the person who receives an upvote before a payout has not received anything until the post is paid out. The "money" is still in the reward pool. We do not even know what the exact payout will be until it is paid out. Until a reward is paid out, that money belongs to the reward pool. Unfortunately the reward pool is much more like socialism than capitalism.

I think you are fundamentally correct about downvotes in a lot of ways. But I also think you have had a lot of bad experiences watching downvotes used in the wrong ways and you project a lot of that on me.

But I will give you an example of why my recent downvote was not as bad as you think. So this Karen account keeps posting and getting upvoted. Even after declining rewards. Why? These are auto upvotes from the Steem days. So people who get auto upvotes are able to do things other accounts cannot. In a normal world without auto upvotes, as soon as the Karen account started dumping years ago, she would stop getting upvotes.

We cannot realistically stop auto upvotes. Like it is impossible. So I think we need downvotes. I used to downvote for a lot of reasons but now overtime I just downvote based on KE. There are exceptions but still. KE is very objective. And the person already got paid. They are selling the rewards they earned, even if they were auto upvotes. But if stakeholder(s) do not want someone getting rewards anymore because the person does not invest in the ecosystem, I think that is legitimate. And, if that person was being upvoted by active accounts her getting downvoted forever is way less likely.

There is an issue with HIVE which is people do not really understand what we are dealing with. HIVE cannot function if people only want to maximize returns. On the flip side, if people do not focus on making money and only focus on doing good, HIVE cannot function either.

So the majority of stake needs to operate in a way where we are trying to make profits and we are trying to do good at the same time.

People on HIVE that only do good are not very effective. And people who try to only make money are not very effective.

People who try to do both are well known but not always popular like they should be.

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hurtlocker 3 days ago

@valued-customer I know I said I didn't want to talk about downvotes with you anymore, but you went there and I was just like, who cares 🤣

I don't mind talking about downvotes. I just don't like when I get thrown into a bucket where I am just the same as every other "downvoter." Like you never asked me for a detailed explanation on why I think that account should not get rewards. Instead you said my use of the downvote in that case was abuse. It is very unlike you when I normally talk to you for you to interact with me that way.

You are always welcome to lobby for me to remove my downvote on another user. I think that is totally fine. You might do a better job than the person who is freaking out tbh. Most people get downvoted and create a situation where it is way worse. What this Karen account did is a great example of making it worse.

On the flip side, there are accounts that get downvoted that do not get zeroed out forever. It happens more than you would think. It is just the people who are the loudest that get the most attention.

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