RE: Downvote Pool Deep Dive

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RE: Downvote Pool Deep Dive

valued-customer in #steem • 6 years ago (edited)

https://github.com/steemit/irredeemables/blob/master/full.txt

Upvotes from the accounts on this list are 'mystery' votes, as these accounts are completely censored presently and upvotes from them are not named. All of their posts and comments are never shown on front ends today.

There are means of revealing them, but those means are almost mythical, they are so unavailable to ordinary users. That's pretty much kicked off the platform. The data may be on the blockchain, but almost no one can see it.

6 years ago in #steem by valued-customer

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enforcer48 6 years ago (edited)

Well, guess what? If those stuff show on the frontends, you ain't loading up posts they choose to spam on.

Do you think frontends did it for the lolz? Spamming thousands of comments to a post has been a tactic to prevent people from literally seeing the post for some time.

And you don't even need to be tech savvy to see this so-called "censored" info on the blockchain. Direct links work just fine on ANY frontends if you really enjoy seeing the same spam so much.

Edit: @smooth corrected me.

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smooth 6 years ago

Witnesses have nothing to do with that list. It is a front end feature; witnesses handle the blockchain itself (could be called the back end, in very imprecise terms).

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valued-customer 6 years ago (edited)

I didn't say there was no justification for this. I pointed out that it was in fact happening, and that @thedegensloth was incorrect to say we can't be kicked off the platform without a hard fork. That list is functionally kicked off the platform, and the only thing between folks on that list and the rest of us is the good will of Steemit.

Regardless of the reasons for Steemit putting folks on that list, there are always more reasons to put people on lists. Lists always expand. What's keeping you off that list? How do you know all the accounts on that list are actually there because of spam? What if @ned went round the bend, or on a bender, and took issue with someone's comments about his hair and stuck them on the list without even mentioning it to anyone? Who would even know?

Why not let individual bloggers apply that list on their blogs, or at least have the option to unlist folks on their posts?

Centralized censorship has become a reality on Steem front ends, and something is going to happen to make that worse if that power isn't decentralized. I realize this was a stopgap measure and undertaken for good cause. The road to hell is a shortcut paved with good intentions.

MIRA can fix this. It is my hope that Moore's Law continues to hold, and also that MIRA can even be improved, such that virtually every account and user can host their own node. If that becomes much more true than it is now, Steem can be truly decentralized, and individual accounts will have to be the loci of censorship, at least this mechanism of censorship.

Until then we just have to trust the listmakers.

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enforcer48 6 years ago

How do you know all the accounts on that list are actually there because of spam?

Why don't you go check them out one by one and come back to tell me more about it? That list applies to Steemit. Other frontends can choose whether or not they want to use it.

Just like with @thedarkoverlord, different frontends hid different items based on what they feel is appropriate. The difference between that and your traditional "centralized censorship" is people can still readily access what they did and they are not gone permanently.

In fact, I believe all frontends should be able to choose what they want to display based on the audience they are trying to attract.

I'll take your points seriously when someone actually receives the hardfork, aka actually gone, treatment.

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valued-customer 6 years ago (edited)

"Other frontends can choose whether or not they want to use it."

Not to my understanding. This list is implemented via the nodes, and other front ends are using the nodes Steemit provides, according to the very limited grasp I have of this mechanism, and that is why Steempeak and Busy are also being impacted. That's why MIRA could solve the problem.

"...people can still readily access what they did..."

No they can't. People can't extract data from the blockchain anymore than they can build automobiles from scratch. People are functionally limited to publicly available front ends, just as much as they are commercially available cars.

Either trust is a vector for fraud or trustless mechanisms are extant. This list is not a trustless mechanism. You refer to the extant list as if that's the only possible implementation of this mechanism. I tried to point out some humorous examples of why that isn't reasonable, but you seem to have failed to grasp that fact. What if ISIS sent a few thugs to the home office and politely requested some additions or removals from the list? What if CNBC, Russia, or Israel buys Steemit.com? What if hackers attack that centralized single point of weakness?

The status quo won't persist indefinitely, and even if you trust the listmakers today, who makes that list is going to change, as is the list itself. You may not grasp that your trust of those making that list is a vector for fraud, but no victim of fraud ever did until after the fact. I don't distrust @ned to implement this mechanism without fraudulent intent. I just know that @ned isn't any more permanent than I, criminals will seek weaknesses to exploit, and only decentralization prevents centralized power from being projected.

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enforcer48 6 years ago

No they can't.

https://github.com/steemit/irredeemables/blob/master/full.txt

Stop spreading misinformation. Have you tried entering their user name directly on the frontend? NO, YOU HAVE NOT.

Here, let me do it for you.

https://steemit.com/@animalcontrol
https://steemit.com/@cemalbaba

etc.

Come back when you can no longer see anything.

People like @iamgod and @thedarkoverlord are on completely different levels from that list you are citing.

You clearly do not have an understanding of what you are on about. Do not reply back.

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valued-customer 6 years ago

I have seen multiple votes from these accounts that are not named, and they have become mystery votes. Ask @a-non-e-moose, who has necessary competence to explain this to you, and whom explained it to me when we were seeking to understand how those votes were cast.

Actions by those accounts are completely and utterly censored. Your actions conducting search aren't. I'm sorry you're incompetent to grasp the difference.

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enforcer48 6 years ago

No, you are incompetent to even understand the concepts of "censorship resistance".

Just because you are incompetent to have basic clicking skills to navigate laughable filters doesn't mean someone is being censored.
Just because you are incompetent to use workarounds that exist doesn't mean we don't have censorship resistance.
Just because you are incompetent to find another frontend or get someone else to build a frontend that doesn't give a dang doesn't equate to censorship.
Just because you prefer to have posts not load up due to thousands of spam from some whale "proving a point" doesn't mean the rest of the peeps need to suffer alongside with you.
Just because you are okay seeing kiddie porn and PHI leaking about doesn't mean every frontend has to show them.

Are the votes not cast? Are things not recorded to the blockchain? Did you not get the rewards? Did they not get the curation? They still freaking show up on the voting list when someone else votes for you. Anyone using a few of the dozen tools out there know you receive votes from FTG (and his hundreds of alts) from time to time. You are just grasping at mundane bs to appear knowledgeable on this matter.

Give it a rest. I have interactions with @a-non-e-moose from time to time. You are in no position to lecture me because YOU ARE WRONG and are desperately trying to tell me something as if you have unearthed a monumental discovery.

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valued-customer 6 years ago

You know you talk a lot about things you have no understanding of. I am very glad you have revealed that, so I don't have to pay any more attention to you. Worse, you put words in my mouth. That's called projection, and it's a symptom of something worse.

Good luck with that.