RE: Tron and Steemit Join Forces

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RE: Tron and Steemit Join Forces

smooth in #steemit • 5 years ago (edited)

Honestly that is a silly argument. In any system of votes if you multiply everyone's votes by 2 or 10 or 1/2 or a million, everyone still has the same share of the votes.

The multiplication does not do what you claim.

There are good reasons for approval-type voting in this context which have nothing to do with the founders wanting to have had complete control. In fact, originally the founders had a much larger share than Tron has now, and probably would have had complete control even under the system you propose.

What you are trying to do is give more influence to a distinct minority stake. That's laudable in some sense, but you can't avoid recognizing that weakens the security of the chain, which relies on: a) the majority being honest, and b) maximizing the threshold that a dishonest minority much reach in order to gain influence.

5 years ago in #steemit by smooth

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valued-customer 5 years ago (edited)

"In any system of votes if you multiply everyone's votes by 2 or 10 or 1/2 or a million, everyone still has the same share of the votes."

I disagree that this is equitable, because witness votes are measured in Steem voted them. While proportions may remain relatively the same, in real terms the larger stakes effect greater influence over the witnesses. 30M votes greatly outweighs 3M votes in an election, and it doesn't matter at all that they are proportionately the same to the actual stake of the voters. In real votes they are dramatically divergent, and that's how witness votes are counted.

But you know that.

"What you are trying to do is give more influence to a distinct minority stake."

Well, what I am seeking to do is to eliminate the massive over representation of substantial stakeholders to influence the witnesses by multiplying their VP 30 fold. They already have most of the stake. Letting them vote it 30 times increases their influence, which is already greater than all the redfish and minnows together, 30 fold more. Doing that does increase the influence of the majority of voters, so despite phrasing it pejoratively as if it were undue granting of privilege, it is technically increasing the influence of the majority of voters, by reducing the undue influence that has previously been granted whales, so that the founder's stake could exercise instant at will control of the governance of the chain. While the founder's stake was not deployed, the whales enjoyed 30x the influence on the witnesses their stakes merited over redfish, minnows, and dolphins.

What is necessary to improve security of the witnesses with the founders stake in the wild now, is to eliminate that disproportionate influence allowing that massive stake to vote 30 times. The witnesses aren't voted proportionately, but actually. The Steem backing them is what counts. Larger stakes voting once wield 30x less Steem in real terms than they do voting 30x.

But you know that.

"...the security of the chain, which relies on: a) the majority being honest, and b) maximizing the threshold that a dishonest minority much reach in order to gain influence."

This is no justification for granting large stakeholders 30x more votes. That's a ludicrous argument, because whales and orcas alone wield more stake than all redfish, minnows, and dolphins combined. Those lesser stakeholders, the majority of the voters, aren't the threat to the security of the chain.

It's the whales that are the minority with a majority stake that is a threat to the security of the chain, and particularly the one stakeholder with ~1/3 of extant stake, because 30x over representation grants them inordinate power to influence the witnesses.

Do not misrepresent these facts any longer. It is facile to see through your mischaracterization.

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smooth 5 years ago (edited)

We will mostly have to agree to disagree.

But one last time:

and particularly the one stakeholder with ~1/3 of extant stake, because 30x over representation grants them inordinate power to influence the witnesses.

Except that it is isn't 'inordinate'. In a perfectly fair system, a vastly larger stake should have vastly larger influence. In simple election terms, 51% wins and 49% loses (though in this case it is more like 60% and 40%). We just don't really like that outcome at the moment, so we try to come up with voting rules that gives 49% a chance at some sort of partial win, blunting the influence of the vastly larger stake. This obviously also gives any minority attackers a chance at a partial win, making the chain less secure in general.

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valued-customer 5 years ago (edited)

I will agree that I am disagreeable. I just tossed you a witness vote BTW. You clearly have the patience of Job and the diligence of Noah coupled to a sincere dedication to Steem to have spent the time and effort to discuss this with me.

Thanks!

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smooth 5 years ago

Thank you for the vote, though no longer needed as I have decided to step back from full time witnessing. (see @smooth.witness post)

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valued-customer 5 years ago

While I am disturbed that this was your preferred option, given the circumstances, I well understand why it was.

Strange, but timing is everything.

I have moved my witness vote thanks to your timely announcement.

Thank you for that.

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