RE: Reward Curve Deep Dive

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RE: Reward Curve Deep Dive

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jaki01 in #steem • 7 years ago (edited)

Interesting!

My own idea, which I formulated about a year ago, is a reward curve which started as a*n^2 (thus flat at the very beginning and then getting steeper), and then later changed into linear which would work against self-voting as well as against the excessive rewards of pure n^2. I see your curve would end even flatter which I think is reasonable.

@clayop had a similar idea.

The curve in my mentioned post could be made more 'beautiful' (without a 'knee') by using spline interpolation, but it was about the idea (the mathematics would be your part then :-):

I also take the opportunity to present my other idea of implementing diminishing returns when upvoting the same accounts (including one's own) again and again to make it more attractive to upvote many different accounts instead of always the same 'best friends'.

7 years ago in #steem by jaki01

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7 votes

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vandeberg 7 years ago

Spline Interpolation is a technique that tries to approximate to a high degree of certainty more complex curves using simpler piecewise curves. Using it in this case would be a step backwards because the curve we would be approximating is not actually that complicated.

Diminishing returns on upvotes is an interesting idea but I don't think it would work. Even with superlinear rewards, I put all of my stake in to one account and then post comments with n+1 accounts, where n is the number of unique accounts I need to vote on to avoid such diminishing returns. The large account spreads out votes and avoids the diminishing returns.

You could also implement this is as an account to account time based diminishing return. Despite being expensive in the database to maintain, it would hurt content creators in the long term. Repeat customers are hugely important in media. YouTube, for example, puts new videos from channels you have watched in the past hoping that you will watch more of their videos. Punishing the author for creating a following will not help grow Steem.

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12 votes

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jaki01 7 years ago

I would like to add something:

Punishing the author for creating a following will not help grow Steem.

Of course. However, I think it also increases social interaction on the platform if people benefit from trying so seek, read and upvote great posts also (not only!) from unknown authors as well. Then new users would have a better chance to get noticed and rewarded.
The current system can easily get exploited by people (like for example haejin) with at least two accounts, who write 10 posts per day just to upvote them all with their other account(s) without 'diminishing returns'.

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12 votes

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jaki01 7 years ago (edited)

Thanks for your reply!

I only mentioned spline interpolation because of my 'ugly' curve with that 'knee'. :)
However, anyway my curve only served as an example to show my idea: to start flat to make self-upvoting less attractive and to end also flatter than n^2 to avoid huge rewards for single posts.
There are much better curves (for example sigmoid function like curves could be interesting) to serve the same purpose ... but ... I was just too lazy to seek a suitable curve. :)

Yes, unfortunately, concerning 'diminishing returns' you are probably right: with enough accounts one can circumvent their effect ... but at least the 'traditional' circle voting would be somewhat more dificult.
I have nothing against building a following (I also like to upvote my friends and receive their upvotes), therefore I had suggested that the 'diminishing returns' only should have an effect for a certain time span (there could be a similar reloading mechanism like voting power anyway has).

Anyway, just consider my thoughts as 'food for (further) thoughts' - it's well possible that there are better ideas and solutions.

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4 votes

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mattockfs 7 years ago (edited)

Don't think there is actually anything wrong with 'ugly and ugly could be of use if it aligns with the users mindframe (such as the redfish/minnow threshold). I would propose ugly in such a way is a desireable trade for user experience purposes.

Something like:

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1 vote

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jaki01 7 years ago

'My curve' is 'ugly' because I just mixed two curves together into one single graph to demonstrate my idea. I mean, if one used one single curve (maybe a sigmoid one?) instead, which also starts flat and ends not so steep, then it would have the same effect, but just looked much better. :)

You are right, in general there is no problem with looking 'ugly' of course.

Your example curve looks more or less linear ... :)

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2 votes

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mattockfs 7 years ago

The example curve would give an 'ugly jump' 2.5% bonus at each of the fish-size thresholds used by Steemitboard because of the use of the floor function. Basically switching to a slightly steeper linear line at every power of ten thresholds for the vesting shares. Not sure if its the best function to use, but I do think that fish-size thresholds make a lot of sense for incentivizing the use of few large over many small accounts in a way everyone can understand. Give minnows a slightly better deal than redfish. Dolphins a slightly better deal than minnows, etc.

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1 vote

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rycharde 7 years ago

What may be ugly algebraically may well be quite simple as the interaction of two algorithms - just look at the curation rewards during the reverse auction to see what I mean.

Just an idea.

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3 votes

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jamesbrown 7 years ago (edited)

Now that type of reward function makes sense, tie it to something tangible that almost every Steemit user can grasp. I'm not sure that I agree with the chosen "bonus" (I think keeping it to something smaller like 1% is a bit fairer), but that's a whole other topic.

I imagine that type of function would add more of a gamification element into the Steem ecosystem, the real sense of "powering-up" each time that we move from one level to the next, which could drive more engagement within the community. It's also intuitive that the users who put up the most risk (power up the most Steem) get some extra perks for doing so.

It's certainly not as easy to power up 100K Steem as it is to do it for 100 (from the risk/reward perspective), having this type of bonus would certainly incentivize taking on a bit more risk and perhaps cause some who'd decide against it within the current linear function to reconsider their position.

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2 votes

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mattockfs 7 years ago

Just did this post on the subject for those that are interested.

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pibara 7 years ago (edited)

For clarity, here is an example of what the account size correction factor for both types of function could basically end up looking like.

The steps in the blue line show the different fish sizes. I hope these two together in one graph show the difference in impact on the handicap for new accounts.

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ackza 7 years ago

Thank you for yoru work on steem and for coming into talk to everyone on the PAl discord today https://discord.gg/QBsa8fd

It was really cool to hear all the acknowledgement of steem-engine by steemit inc employees. Let's hope @aggroed and @yabapmatt help to push your team to work a little faster so we can have something before EOS and Block.one launches their MEOS wallet with Universal basic Income eclipsing Stem later this year, we really need to adress this comment by @dan Steem and Steemit FOunder, we need more people like you to actually tell us about the upgrades to steem we will need to compete with EOS since @ned has no plans on actuyally working together with block.one which is a shame after hearing this from @dan Steem/steemit founder

I still havent seen @nmed or anyone at STeemit inc actually answer this and tell us why steem shouldnt be reimagined by EOS and how steemit inc isnt running out of time? I mean thats the CREATOR of steem saying that.... Id really love to hear some actual answers from steemit inc about this like a roadmap to explain how they can even possibly think about competing with EOS

I like hearing from @aggroed today about plans to COOPERATE with EOS instead of trying to compete. also @stellabelle working at @pixeos has also made on chain comments here on steem expressing a wish to work together. Aggroed is adding EOS to Steem-engine so that will let peopel buya nd sell steem ro eos or eos for steem, and hes adding regular stocks from the stock market... see its THESE sorts of things that keeps steem relevanta nd I just havent seen anything come out of steemit inc anywhere near as big of a deal as the progress Aggroed and his team has made with Steem-Engine.com yabapmatt's keychain (Like our metamask) and SteemMonsters too, I wonder why isnt @ned funding Steem projects teh way EOS is with theiur 100 Million dollar EOS VC Venture Capital Fund? And forgive me for talking about this here, but there is literaly nowhere else to discuss this and @ned doesn't post so yeah, you're teh closest i can get.

Im glad people like you are working hard but seems like its not enough if @ned isnt going to do his mark and risk a little of his money on buying ads and marketing for steem like I myself have done, which is way more than i should have done considering my stake, if Ned had done a proportional amount of work to promote steem as I have done, theres no doubtr steem would be $10 by now with all the reddit bitcoin users and crypto twitter masses I would have won over with upvote contests and sponsoring of reddit and twitter Steem Tip Bots to promote steem and steem-engine tokens....

and Im glad to hear from @elipowel that she would like to ship SMTYs by Fall as she said today, we will try to hold her to that ;)

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2 votes

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dana-edwards 7 years ago

I would agree why not cooperate? I'm all for cooperation especially since Facebook is in the background waiting to compete.

Ned and Dan should work together and could. Why not simply port Steem and all accounts over to EOS? It's not impossible.

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3 votes

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valued-customer 7 years ago

Steem-Engine will shortly need to accede to regulatory demands and require KYC and other mechanisms as necessary to comply with legal requirements. @blocktrades today posted that they were immediately implementing such operational changes for that reason.

I do not see this as beneficial to the community, for several reasons, despite that both need to comply in order to continue operations.

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2 votes

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ackza 7 years ago

yeah theres no way steem engine will get way with out KYX for long, wether or not its legally necessary or not, its more about bullying and giving into men with guns nothing else.... this shit will all get taxes and regulated as soon as it makes any money of course....

we can hope that we stay under radar but of course @ned will give in to the first phoen call he gets from the feds and make everyone signing up to Steemit give up th3eir ID to steemit inc, who will then sell our data to advertisers and probly some criminals since ned is that bad at busines,s hahaha i can see it happening now... ned trying to act like hes facebook all teh sudden as soon as he realizes he wont eb able to pay the bills for steemit inc with advertising alone... especially when no one is using steemit.com like they used to..... BTW funny u got flagged lol proves your point

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1 vote

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iflagtrash 7 years ago

I flag trash. You have received a flag.

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3 votes