Magi Network DHF Proposal 2026

in #hive7 days ago (edited)

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Proposal Account: @magi.network
Daily Ask: 900 HBD/day (22% reduction + a revenue based reduction towards $0 USD)
Vote here: https://peakd.com/me/proposals/378


What Magi Is And Why Hive Needs It

For the first time in Hive's ten-year history, there is a protocol-level mechanism that creates new, mechanical demand for Hive assets from outside the Hive ecosystem. Not speculation. Not marketing. Not hoping for the altcoin market to recover. Structural demand baked into how cross-chain swaps work.
Magi aims to fulfil 3 important goals that we feel as Hivers should be more present (where possible) with DHF funded proposals:

  1. Revenue generation
  2. Self-Sustainability
  3. Structural Hive and HBD demand generation

At this point in time BTC-HBD and HIVE-HBD liquidity pools are live on Magi Network, accessible through Altera, Magi's flagship DeFi application.
Not wrapped Bitcoin. Not a synthetic. Not a custodial bridge token. Real, native Bitcoin sitting on the Bitcoin mainnet, swappable through decentralized pools built on Hive's Layer 2.

Every pool pairs against HBD. Every multi-hop swap routes through HBD. As cross-chain volume grows, BTC to DASH, USDC to BTC, USDC to HIVE, BTC to HIVE, ETH to BTC, ETH to HIVE, eventually dozens of asset pairs demand for HBD scales proportionally. And because HBD is backed by HIVE, that demand flows directly into the HIVE economy.
This is the flywheel Hive has never had. Every external user who touches Magi generates value for the Hive ecosystem whether they know it or not.


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The Fourth Protocol Ever to Do This

Out of thousands of protocols in crypto, only four have shipped TSS-based custody for native Bitcoin in production cross-chain swaps, where real BTC is held and transferred without any wrapped token at any stage:

ProtocolArchitecture
THORChainCosmos SDK, RUNE settlement
ChainflipSubstrate-based, 100-of-150 threshold
Maya ProtocolTHORChain fork, CACAO settlement
MagiHive L2, HBD settlement, WASM smart contracts

Every other "cross-chain" protocol either wraps Bitcoin into an ERC-20 or uses centralized custody. The reason so few ship native BTC swaps is because the engineering is brutally hard, distributed key generation, multi-round signing ceremonies, key rotation without fund migration, UTXO tracking, SPV verification, all under adversarial conditions. Most teams assess the complexity and ship wrapped tokens instead.

Where there were only three, now there are four. Magi is the only one built on Hive.


Why This Architecture Matters

Your "wrapped" BTC on Ethereum is a promise from one entity with one key. Cross-chain bridges have lost over $2.5 billion to hacks, Ronin ($625M), Wormhole ($320M), Nomad ($190M), Harmony ($100M) almost always because a single private key or a small multisig was compromised. That's the custodial model. One key. One target. One hack. Everything gone.

Magi doesn't work that way. There is no single key. No custodian. No recovery account. Threshold-signed custody across an elected validator set means no single party can move funds. The Bitcoin network sees a completely normal transaction, no idea independent parties cooperated to produce the signature.


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Eliminating Hive's CEX Dependence

The fear of exchange delistings has hung over Hive for years. Every time an exchange reviews its listings, the community holds its breath. That dynamic exists because Hive's liquidity has been almost entirely dependent on centralized exchanges deciding to support it.

Magi makes their listings irrelevant. The protocol doesn't care about listing requirements, trading volume thresholds, or compliance reviews. It's infrastructure. It runs because validators run it.
Every new chain Magi integrates is another on-ramp path. Each new chain means another path to reach HIVE, and the harder it becomes for any single point of failure to cut off access.

Hive becomes self-sufficient not because it doesn't need liquidity, but because it does not rely on anyone other than itself.


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The Magi App Layer - Every Wallet, One Platform

The next killer app in crypto won't come from a protocol that's cut off from the rest of the ecosystem. It will come from one that connects them all.

Magi's application layer does something no other Hive infrastructure has ever done: it lets Bitcoin wallets, EVM wallets, and Hive wallets interact with the same app layer at the same time. A user with Leather signs a BTC transaction. A user with MetaMask signs an ETH transaction. A user with Keychain signs a Hive transaction. All three using the same liquidity pools, interacting with the the same application.
This is wallet interoperability at the protocol level. A single application layer where users from different chains show up as first-class participants with their native wallets, their native assets, and their native signing experience.

For developers, this changes the math completely. Building on Magi means your app is instantly accessible to Bitcoin users, Ethereum users, Hive users, and every future chain Magi integrates. Your addressable market isn't one chain's user base, it's all of them. Liquidity from multiple ecosystems flows into your application without your users needing to leave their wallet or learn a new chain.

For Hive, this is the unlock. Hive applications are no longer limited to Hive users. Every chain Magi connects becomes a source of users, liquidity, and activity for apps built on Hive's Layer 2. The barrier between ecosystems disappears and the builders who show up first capture the network effect.


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What We Built (Live+Testnet)

Everything below is built, live, or in final testing. All publicly verifiable on GitHub.

  • Native Bitcoin Swaps — Live on Mainnet.
    Real BTC, real swaps, real liquidity pools. Non-custodial. Trustless.
    Read the announcement
  • 6 Chain integrations ready — BTC, EVM, LTC, DASH, DOGE, BCH.
    Same custody infrastructure, same signing protocol, same security model.
  • Altera — Complete App Rewrite, Live.
    BTC wallet sign-in. Wallet-signed deposits. Multi-hop routing. QuickSwap with live pool math. Not a reskin a whole new application.
    Try it: altera.magi.eco
  • Token Ecosystem — Live.
    Fungible tokens and NFTs deployable by anyone on Magi today. Mintable, burnable, pausable, with soulbound token support. The foundation for DeFi, gaming, and community projects on Hive L2.
    Read the announcement
  • Magi SDK v1.0 - Ship a DEX on Your Site in 10 Minutes.
    Embeddable cross-chain swap widget. Any Hive frontend can become a cross-chain liquidity aggregator overnight. One component, your referral address, done.
    Read the announcement
  • EVM / Ethereum Integration - Proven on Testnet.
    Deposit ETH and USDC into Magi, swap for any asset, withdraw back to Ethereum. No wrapping. No custodians. The largest pool of on-chain liquidity in crypto, connected to Hive. Targeting release alongside DASH and ZK proofs.
    Read the progress update
  • ZK Proof System - First of Its Kind.
    Zero-knowledge proofs of Ethereum consensus verified on-chain. Instead of every validator running a full Ethereum node, one prover generates a cryptographic proof and every validator verifies it instantly. To run validators on other equivalent protocols to ours the cost to run them is 2-3k USD per month in hardware alone, with ZK proofs we reduce that to $0 USD.
  • Passkey Wallet + ZK emails + Email-to-Email Payments.
    Sign in with Google. Generate a passkey based wallet. Send HBD between email address even inside the email body. Recipient clicks a link, signs in, funds arrive. No seed phrases. This is how Magi reaches users who have never touched crypto.
  • TSS Reshare — Fixed from the Ground Up.
    The cryptographic backbone that makes everything else possible. The largest merge to mainnet in project history — 301 commits, 234 files changed. Reshares completing on schedule, every epoch.
    Read the full development update
  • Incentive Pendulum — In Development.
    The validator fee distribution mechanism. Validators earn directly from swap fees and other sources. This is the unlock that major LPs are waiting on before committing deeper liquidity. In active review.

A Note On This Proposal 🦋

Magi has undergone a leadership transition. Magi previously operated under a different organizational structure. Damir Rogošić (@lordbutterfly) has stepped into the project lead role, while the previous team lead, Vaultec has transitioned into a technical and BD capacity. This transition does not change anything in relation to our promise to the Hive community. We believe it showcases our determination to optimize our operation and deliver everything we set out to do.

The leadership transition in terms of internal structure has already happened about 3 months ago. In the 75 days since the leadership transition, the team has delivered:

  • 560% increase in net code output
  • 600% increase in PR shipping rate
  • 400% increase in core infrastructure throughput
  • 1,100% increase in multi-chain development

All of it verifiable on the vsc-org github.

What happened in those 75 days:

  • Mainnet launch of TSS, fixed and hardened - live
  • Native Bitcoin swaps — live
  • 6 chain integrations code ready — EVM, BTC, LTC, DASH, DOGE, BCH
  • Complete Altera app rewrite — live
  • ZK proof system — proven on testnet
  • Token and NFT contracts — live
  • Embeddable SDK — live
  • Passkey wallets and email payments — built
  • TSS reshare — operational
  • 8 full security audits across core node, DEX, UTXO mapping, EVM bridge, ZK verifier, passkey system
  • DASH partnership secured
  • 250+ merged PRs across 15 repositories

Every line of code, every security fix is publicly verifiable on GitHub.


Budget — 900 HBD/Day

The current VSC/Magi proposal asks 1,151 HBD/day. We are asking for 900 HBD/day — a 22% reduction to maintain solidarity with other DHF proposals that reduced their proposal asks with the same team and dramatically faster execution. But we will not stop there. Considering our aim is self-sustainability we will be reducing our proposal all the way to zero USD as we enter revenue generation. We need community funding right now to get to that point.

We in no way intend for Magi to be "a forever DHF proposal" and maximum effort will be put in, so that does not happen. We want this proposal to reflect that.
Current ProposalThis ProposalDifference
Daily ask1,151 HBD900 HBD-22%
Annual cost~420,000 HBD~328,500 HBD-$91,500/year

The Core Team

@lordbutterfly
@vaultec
@milo-hpr
@techcoderx (community contributor)
@disregardfiat
@yozen
@tibfox

The budget covers developer and team wages, server infrastructure, GPU compute for ZK provers, AI development tooling and business development for chain partnerships and aggregator listings.

Cost ItemMonthlyAnnualNotes
Node infrastructure$150$1,800~$50/node (increases with intergations)
ZK prover GPU compute (2 provers)$600–$1,200$7,200–$14,400$300–$600/prover
AI development tooling$800$9,600
Payment services & banking$100$1,200Mercury + misc
US LLC maintenance & compliance$83$1,000Annual filing fees
Miscellaneous services & tooling$150$1,800
Infrastructure subtotal$1,883–$2,483$22,600–$29,800
Core team compensation$24000–$25000$288,000–$300,000Remainder of 900 HBD/day
Total$25,800-$28,000~$310,600–$329,800At 1 HBD = $1

Revenue-Based Reduction - A Commitment to the Community

Magi is making this commitment publicly and on-chain:

Once Magi generates consistent daily protocol revenue we will be reducing the DHF ask.

Protocol RevenueDHF Ask Drops ToReduction
33%+ (~300 HBD/day)600 HBD/day-33%
66%+ (~600 HBD/day)300 HBD/day-66%
100%+ (~900 HBD/day)100 HBD/day-89%
150%+ (~1,350 HBD/day)0 HBD/dayFull DHF exit

The numbers presented are examples, the reduction might happen at earlier revenue thresholds or slightly later depending on when we find the protocol to be stable and in what ranges.

Revenue will be tracked transparently on-chain and reported in monthly updates. The community can verify the numbers independently. The sources of revenue will be the 25% protocol fee revenue from pools and the 0.25% base Altera fee on swaps.

DHF is a bootstrap mechanism, not a permanent subsidy.


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Business Model - The Path to Revenue

Serve demand where no one else does. We don't need to compete for ETH-USDC volume on Ethereum, that market is saturated with single-chain DEXs. Magi operates cross-chain. There are thousands of tokens and protocols with active communities and real trading demand that have zero non-custodial cross-chain liquidity infrastructure. Billions in market cap sitting in ecosystems with no native route to Bitcoin or Ethereum that isn't custodial. These protocols aren't hypothetical customers, they need what we already built, and no one else offers it.

Integration as a service. Currently the plan for future chain integrations come with a minimum $50,000 - $100,000 liquidity commitment, 50% in HBD. Every new chain that connects to Magi creates immediate, structural HBD demand, their community must acquire HBD to seed pools.

Aggregator routing and affiliate fees. Cross-chain aggregators are constantly searching for new routes. Getting listed means volume flows in from the entire DeFi ecosystem, users route through Magi without knowing it exists. Every swap carries a configurable affiliate fee, so any frontend, app, or aggregator that routes through Magi earns a cut. Multiple interfaces compete on UX while the protocol earns on every trade regardless of who serves it. Volume in, fees accrued, HBD demand up.

Marketing that pays for itself. Every chain that integrates brings its own community. Their users market Magi for us because Magi is how they access cross-chain liquidity. Outbound effort focuses on aggregator partnerships and developer onboarding channels with direct revenue conversion, not vanity metrics.


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What We Are Building Next

Immediate (0–60 days)

  • DASH-HBD pools — infrastructure is complete, pool activation is next.
  • ZK proof system to production — flaten validator hardware costs.
  • EVM release — ETH and USDC deposits, swaps, and withdrawals. Targeting release alongside DASH or few days later.
  • Incentive Pendulum activation — the unlock for major LP commitments we have.
  • Fiat on-ramp / off-ramp — integration in Altera removing the need for CEX offramps.

Short Term (60–180 days)

  • LTC, DOGE, BCH pool activation — the infrastructure is built, activation follows DASH.
  • HP staking for validators — bonded HIVE earning, making Magi validation strictly better than raw Hive staking.
  • Developer tools and documentation — templates, SDKs, and onboarding for third-party builders.
  • Passkey wallet + email payments deployment — onboarding non-crypto users.

Medium Term (180+ days)

  • Target for revenue being sufficient to begin DHF reduction steps.
  • ZK expansion to additional chains
  • Developer ecosystem
  • Mobile and additional wallet integrations.
  • More chain integrations — every new chain is another on-ramp, another source of HBD demand, another reason Hive's liquidity becomes impossible to shut down.

Why Vote for This Proposal

Magi is not a whitepaper. It is not a testnet demo. It is not a promise.

It is a working product. Native Bitcoin swaps, live, on Hive's Layer 2. An application layer with wallet interoperability, with tokens, NFTs, a DEX, an SDK. Ethereum integration proven, a ZK proof system that no competitor has shipped. And a team that increased its output by 5-10x over the previous year and will continue to do so.

Magi brings the revenue model Hive has been missing that has the potential to return Hive to the heights that it belongs to.

Every external user who swaps on Magi generates demand for HBD. Every new chain we integrate multiplies that demand. The more chains Magi supports, the more valuable HBD becomes and the more self-sufficient Hive becomes.

It is Hive's exit from CEX dependence. Magi creates liquidity infrastructure that no one controls, no one can delist, and no one can shut down.
We are building the infrastructure that puts Hive where it belongs at the center of cross-chain liquidity. Not as a speculative token hoping for the next bull run, but as the settlement layer for a decentralized financial future for the whole crypto ecosystem that grows stronger with every chain it connects.


Questions and technical discussions: find us on Discord or reach out to @lordbutterfly on Hive.

GitHub: github.com/vsc-eco | Explorer: vsc.techcoderx.com | App: altera.magi.eco | SDK: magisdk.okinoko.io

Connect with us!

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Official Magi Site

Vote for our Hive Witness!

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Don't you think you have leeched enough money already? How about you wait for a while to see if anyone actually uses magi before potentially wasting more? And by anyone I don't mean your current userbase of about 10 hivians.

I would use Magi for all my trades if it actually had the liquidity to facilitate them.
With only a couple thousand dollars in the pool it is currently non-viable.
The even the $50 test I tried out had slip that was too high.
Worked as intended though.

This entire network is a direct and massive upgrade to HiveEngine.
It's honestly what HiveEngine should have been from the beginning.
At this point with all the exchange delistings and KYC it doesn't even feel optional.

Absolutely. Wouldnt you say that Magi would not be viable at all as a crosschain liquidity layer if it had no liquidity? 😅
I would say so... hehe.
What I am trying to say is that we know, pools have been live for 2 weeks, we are preparing for significant liquidity to come in from possibly the most dedicated and historically important contributor to the Hive blockchain ever. His stamp of approval, not only as a Hiver, but as the person that built the first ever DEX in the history of crypto is something we definitely look forward to and will be very proud of. The incentive pendulum and the economic security layer is the last piece of the puzzle.

This entire conversation would be a dismissed afterthought if the price of Hive was over 20 cents.

I find it more than a bit annoying that people are just reactively willing or unwilling to make an investment based on the current spot price. We really should be more divorced from such things, especially when the network is doing well and nobody has an opinion on what's getting funded.

I mean, I hate the market position we are in more than anything you could ever imagine. Its one of the top 3 things I hate most in life. In no particular order.

  1. Americans calling football soccer
  2. Kurtzman Star Trek
  3. Hive at 6 cents

But I see more people having an opinion on whats funded at these low prices and even if its coming from an unwillingness to make an investment I want to hear why that is. For better or worse, I have never been one at a loss of words when it comes to a discussion. 😅
I could do corpo-talk easily here. Its easy but dishonest. People know me too well here already.

There is a saying in Croatia paraphrasing: "A donkey and a man are smarter than the man alone."
Not calling anyone a donkey but the point is, if theres even remote value in a criticism, in any feedback, it is valuable to listen. So for those that are reluctant, tell me why...

Ultimately, proposal or no proposal, Im just a die hard Hiver that will do his absolute best to make this chain a success and if anyone sees where we might fail, although I have utter confidence we will not, anything that would help us succeed, help Hive succeed, I am all ears for. Its not just funding, its about where we want to end up as a chain tomorrow. Thats what Magi is. Its a chance, a good one at that.

We've gotten to that point in the cycle where nobody wants to hear about the potential of a project and everyone wants to see immediate results. Makes sense when we consider how many people got burned on pretty much every investment they made over the last 4 years.

Hopefully when Altera has decent liquidity the result and utility will be harder to deny.
Honestly the loss of MEXC to KYC was a real nail in the coffin that I don't think enough people are taking very seriously. Maybe Hive has been floundering for so long with little access to countries like USA that we're collectively shrugging and assuming that this is how it will always be.

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I used swapspace just fine today 🫠

Come on man. Thats not a fair comparison. You know this. You probably used Changely via swapspace because its the cheapest. Swapspace is just an aggregator for all the centralized exchanges. Youre sending your money to someone else to an account they hold keys to.

They have often AML freezes, 1.8 BTC last year. 70k DOGE, a bunch of other bigger ones.
Theyre decent at what they do but theres a reason why Thorchain does billions in volume per year and why the market is moving towards DEXes.

You could say... I made a facebook post, a twitter post today just fine. Why use Hive?
What we are building is the equivalent of what Hive is for free speech and freedom but for the financial space.

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Me too

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With enough volume and users we dont need any funding, thats the point. Self-sustainability. We need to get to that point. Once the pendulum is ready and live and 1 more audit round is done we expect significant liquidity coming in to support the trading.

Waiting a while to get users and volume and then ask DHF money would not make sense. When we get to that point we dont want to rely on the DHF.
That would be the leeching you describe.

So if "enough" users is never achieved you will be asking dhf money perpetually?

Its clearly stated in the proposal text: "Magi is not a forever proposal."

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 5 days ago Reveal Comment
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They only got $800k, I think they want to break $1M

why so negative? Imagine they where inside trades because it already took off? We dont have such problems! LMAO

IMO the protocol ( Hive) should own a share off pools ( like the HBD proposal) with a multisig wallet. Hive/HBD and Hive / other stablecoin + Hive/BTC ( or other). This way there is a possibility of people use it.

OFC keys handled by people like Blocktrades and co to make it trustworthy ( multisig).

Under 1M in pools is like a app for ants ( and even 1m is for ants).

We are throwing crazy amounts of money out the window while the price of Hive craters. Most of it is costing us 10x the value we are getting. We are paying $100k so people to curate ffs.

I mean funding a private app on top of the chain makes IMO not much sense too. Thats why i think if support it would be smarter to fill pools to make it useful. I dont see a reason why someone should build on magi now. So yeah and if you might see, it was 50% a joke haha

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 5 days ago Reveal Comment
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This project need support so that it can reach it full potential. Going multichain for Hive is a no brainer.

Absolutely

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In general I support but over 300k seems steep, it is an expensive ask.

Also the immense growth in deliveries and code throughput sounds scary, is AI being used to speed things up? How was such an increase achieved? I ask it because so many DeFi platforms have been hacked in the past, magi sounds like a very important step towards reducing the need for centralized exchanges but it is also a reputational and financial risk when it comes to safety and security.

Increasing the delivery of code and features by hundreds of % sounds good but is not necessarily, specifically when it comes to DeFi it raises red flags in my mind.

Also, need more details on how the funds will be used. The fact that you plan to reduce it proportionally to rewards increasing aiming to get to zero is great, it is a huge green flag, but this positive in my view is dwarfed by the size of the funding asked and the risks of the business and the code/financial risk (I did not check the code myself)

Thank you for your feedback. We are fully aware that it will always be too much for someone, whatever is asked. That is simply expected which is why I invite anyone that holds that position, which can be or might not be justified, to actually look at what it is we are delivering and what our goals are.

Increasing the delivery of code and features by hundreds of % sounds good but is not necessarily, specifically when it comes to DeFi it raises red flags in my mind.

That is fair. But we are not adding code for the sake of adding code. These are all incredibly necessary additions related to infrastructure, all greenfield stuff. Our output in code will obviously drop over time once all the infra is built and focus moves onto business. We will be freezing greenfield development after the next round of feature releases for a few week at least to work on optimization. Thats when we expect significant liquidity to come in. That will be our focus. I think the roadmap reflects that due to the fact that we are not releasing all integrations at the same time even though the code is finished.

Also, need more details on how the funds will be used.

The core team is decently large and budget is in most part spent on the team, it slightly fluctuates due to how specific team members are paid (fixed, per hour) but that is almost entirely the budget with ofc servers, team nodes, certain services, Zk provers will account for most of the non team cost.

The fact that you plan to reduce it proportionally to rewards increasing aiming to get to zero is great, it is a huge green flag, but this positive in my view is dwarfed by the size of the funding asked.

I would respectfully disagree with this. And I am not talking here as the project lead. Im talking as a 8 year Hiver that put in thousands of hours of work into Hive for free to try and help this chain. Its how I even started with Magi, as an external volunteer.

Not only do I think the budget is easily justifiable but I think that spending 10x more DHF funds on projects like Magi, that aim for self-sufficiency, creating clear token demand that's not hype based should be the norm. Not a 1 off, like Magi is currently.

At least 50% of the DHF spending should go on projects like Magi. I want to see more of them. That is what we need. Maintenance and opensource DHF proposals will not make Hive relevant. They might make Hive better or more efficient, or whatever, and thats great, but they can never lift Hive up from the position in the market we are in.
Magi can do that. Those are the "bets" I want to be making with DHF funding.

And I definitely think we, as Magi, are the best bet anyone can make right now. We have shown we can deliver top tier crypto tech and know exactly what to achieve and how.
If we achieve what we set out to do, even to a small degree, any spending on Magi is justified. Wouldnt you agree?

Only thing to ask really, do you trust we can deliver or not? Thats what should mostly affect your choice to fund this or not, imo.

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So what's the alternative . Let Hive die a slow death? I have seen it happen to others.

yeah throwing millions out the window is the solution...

It's not millions... and if you don't see why we needed this Infrastructure like yesterday I guess you are prepared to go down with the ship?

They already got over $800k and want another $330K. It's also not the only project hemorrhaging funding. It's been going for how long and it is funded far more than the daily liquidity. Hive is down 72% from just a year ago. If we spent 5% of the DHF funding we have spent on this and got a top tier exchange, we would be way better off and probably wouldn't be down 99%.

A top tier exchange listing costs $500k-5million USD and doesnt solve anything. You are off by about 10-100x in that claim.

Magi solves all our CEX dependence problems and generates Hive and HBD demand. Its as simple that. The market is moving to DEXes.
Magi is 1 of only 4 crosschain liquidity layers that exist.

We got there before almost everyone else. You should be excited for whats coming. I know you wont be Marky 😅... but you should be.

A top tier exchange listing costs $500k-5million USD and doesnt solve anything. You are off by about 10-100x in that claim.

Hardly, that's only if you brute force your way in.

Yup, super excited.

image.png

We have been “asking nicely” for years. Thats not how it works, especially since we are a low volume chain. Its 500k-5million. And then you can get delisted at a whim.
Thats no solution to anything.

This is the solution. Its not only the best chance we have, its probably the only chance we have. Other proposals are opensource, maintenance, wallet, etc.
You know this.
This is the kind of stuff we should be funding with most of the DHF. Projects that create opportunity for Hive. That have a chance of being competitive in the market.
Im sure you wont support it with your vote, but you can for sure support it in other ways. We need Hive bonded in validator nodes. We need liquidity.
Read what it is we do, you will understand why it helps and how it helps.

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we already are on Binance as well as like 20 other exchanges... I don't think this is the problem. Price is down because Hive does not have enough use cases - this project creates demand for HBD and therefore Hive.

Personally, I have seen at least one other project failing because no one was building anything (useful). We at least have to keep building. Hive's price will recover with the makret overall I believe, but we need momentum if we actually want to go back to ATHs

I can't use Binance from the US, in fact, I can't use any of the exchanges that don't have insane fees.

which is why we need the DeFi gateway... A CEX listing generally doesn't do anything to price long term. In fact, if you look at Binance listings the price of coins generally crashes after getting listed - it's a pump and dump scheme overall.

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Amazing work so far so you get my support!
Been using Altera every day and it's been flawless and a great experience.
Can't wait for the liquidity to come, it's going to be amazing!

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In general is cool but 1 thing.

You like magi, you like pools, you like the dapp. Why the team is not adding into pools? If you think pools are profitable for users, the easiest way to show is to add funds yourself ( not 50$).

I am not asking for millions, but the butcher doesnt eat own meat is not the most trustful right? Just general spoken.

Users need a reason to add to pools to earn something sustainable with fees + Other APY. Like liquid hive staking ( have a token on magi that is baked by staked hive and is tradeable).

Some " on top" builds of HBD savings ( like add some of it on pool APR) and so on. As long you earn less as staking Hive or HBD i dont see a reason someone goes big into.

You like magi, you like pools, you like the dapp. Why the team is not adding into pools? If you think pools are profitable for users, the easiest way to show is to add funds yourself ( not 50$).

Majority of the liquidity in the pools is currently provided by the team. Team members run nodes and infra as well and have bonded their own Hive there. We recently launched a team node that will bond more Hive. Currently 20% or the Hive/HBD pool and 28% of the BTC/HBD pool is seeded by my account alone.

I am not asking for millions, but the butcher doesnt eat own meat is not the most trustful right? Just general spoken.

Once the pendulum is active, I will personally be moving all my Hive to Magi to secure the system. Not only because of "butcher needs to eat its own meat" but because we intend to make validator bonding the highest APR generator Hive has.

well, show it somewhere ( data and curves). That could help attract people. It must be super easy to see. If data is right with 20% and 28%, push it more ( or at least show it somewhere).

At the end people want to earn.

I mean no one brought it up, but if thats a concern of yours, its easy to show. Great you asked.

Theres just so much we are building and delivering Ive had people tell me its too much, to break it down, which we will try to do but its always great to have people ask, that tells us what they are interested in and its easy to cover their specific needs. Even this post is so much info presented and it still lacks a number of the features, some you mentioned yourself in the comment.

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Thanks cool! Fees earned are not bad tbh. I would not expected that.
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And i think the Key is push beyond the defi app. To leverage, it needs more ( defi is a good foundation to build on, but there must be a way to list " shitcoins" by contract ID or whatever.) So other people can come up with ideas and build finance tool on their own.

The team doesnt need to build all, but needs to make it attractive enough to take the risk to build on it.

I can see the benefit of not being tied to the centralised exchanges, and just having a viable alternative is the kind of thing that could make HIVE interesting to those exchanges as well.

But 328500 HBD is around 1% of the Hive market capitalisation (based on CoinGecko's current figure). That's a very significant investment, especially under current market and economic conditions.

I believe it could be a worthwhile investment, but only if it delivers an actual positive ROI.

To my mind as a business owner and bearing in mind the scenario, the best metric is past performance. So I have a simple question. How much has been paid out by the DHF over each of the last few years when Magi was VSC, and how much revenue or market capital did that bring into Hive ?

If you can show an audit trail demonstrating a positive return, then I'll be happy to vote for the proposal.

Usually with projects like this in crypto grants are paid up front to cover full development over many years. That being said, no revenue has been generated so far as we have only 2 weeks ago reached a point where we could launch this tech live. There is still some way to go to be selfsustainable.

The claims in the post about Magi being the pinnacle of crosschain tech development and 1 of only 4 protocols that exist out of tens of thousands that reached this level is not an exaggeration, it is a fact. This kind of tech takes a lot of time and expertise to develop.

If it was easy everyone would have built this already and saved billions in funds stolen by hacks. But they didnt build it, thats how big of an endeavor it is, when top chains find it more financially viable to lose billions over attempting to build a Magi type protocol.

Thanks for your reply ! I appreciate this is a technically complex piece of work, but could be hugely beneficial.

But your answer hasn't got any actual numbers in. If I'm making an investment in my business that could soak up a significant chunk of the balance sheet value, I expect to see, or work up myself if I'm doing most of the work) a detailed financial business case.

So I understand there's been no revenue so far, and get that revenue doesn't always happen during the development phase, although whenever I've spoken to venture capitalists, they always like to see a trial or limited early-stage release to at least establish the revenue potential.

I also get that you guys are developers rather than accountants ! So to helpfully help the process along, perhaps we can have a few key answers with numbers;

  • The first is, since this is really a multi-year project, what are the previous year actuals, current year request and anticipated future HBD grants from Hive ? I know some of those numbers for the future are already in the proposal, but what I am trying to get to is a number for the total figure, whether it's to Magi, VSC or any other group who have worked on this project ?

  • The second is, since this is clearly intended to benefit all of the various blockchains it links, how much have other blockchains, DAO's or whatever contributed ? Is it Hive solely funding this even though others will benefit as well ?

  • Third is, what are the anticipated levels of revenue, what are the projections of them scaling over time (and the anticipated costs in support, further development, bug patches etc), and how will these be split between the development team, Hive, and other blockchains ?

  • Finally, and this is one where a number probably can't be assigned but needs to be considered seriously; what evidence is there that this will deliver a net benefit to Hive's user base and market cap, rather than being just a way for Hive users to extract earnings to other blockchains ?

I appreciate I'm asking tough questions, but my intention isn't to be negative, it's to really understand the financials in order to be comfortable that this project really will benefit Hive and will be the best use of the funds provided compared to other proposals.

they always like to see a trial or limited early-stage release to at least establish the revenue potential.

Altera and the pools are live, we arent even early stage any more, we have proven what we can do.

anticipated future HBD grants from Hive ?

This is answered in the post.

and how will these be split between the development team, Hive, and other blockchains ?

There is no split between Hive or other blockchains. LPs, those that provide HBD liquidity and validators, those that bond Hive are primary earners.
Without the commitment in liquidity we are waiting for it is tough to anticipate revenue. What we need is between 1-3% of Thorchain daily volume to be selfsufficient and that would require significant HBD being bought and placed in pools.

what evidence is there that this will deliver a net benefit to Hive's user base and market cap, rather than being just a way for Hive users to extract earnings to other blockchains ?

The evidence is obvious and covered extensively inside the post. The second part reminds me of isolationism, that way of thinking is something i oppose completely and I dont think it warrants a discussion here. That is a discussion I do not think has a place in crypto. Its inherently defeatist and assuming it places us in a position of inferiority. And I do not think Hive is inferior to any other blockchain. Its a fundamentally different philosophy than I subscribe to.

Without second-layer tokens integrated with Hive Keychain, which can be created quickly and easily, Magi is completely useless (at least for me). The only sensible thing from the previous proposal was V4V. Here, I don’t even see that.

Always a fun time with you Hallman. :)

If you read the proposal the app layer is live and functional, tokens and NFTs. What youre describing here didnt even make it to roadmap because its ready to push on Okinoko.io but Tibfox didnt have time to push it live as he had more critical work to do related to Magi.

I would definitely disagree with easy to launch tokens being "the only sensible thing". I would describe it as being by far the least critical feature as you can already easily launch HE tokens.
For the app layer the actual critical value add proposition, is the wallet interoperability that no other app platform offers, as described in the post.
That is the killer app layer feature.

Because of this approach, 99% of projects will choose Solana over Hive. Hive Engine is a joke. There are more problems than benefits with it. But only those who use these tokens practically, rather than theoretically or once a year, know this.

What about V4V? That was the only thing useful in real life that was in your previous proposal.

You need to be specific in what it is you mean by "Hive Engine is a joke" in terms of functionality that you need.
My experience with Hive Engine has been very good for many years. The trust assumption there isnt to my liking, which Magi does solve, but Hive Engine has given birth to many great projects over the years.
And for the V4V mention what is the functionality that gives you the "real world usefulness". It would be easier to address your needs if you could specify them exactly.

Regarding Hive-Engine: it is very slow, and we’ve had many situations where it simply didn't work, which effectively discouraged new users from using it (e.g., node issues).

Regarding V4V: thanks to this app, we can completely bypass exchanges and live directly off crypto. In Krakow, I can go to a cafe and pay with HBD. Thanks to this, in November at the Kingdom, we were able to carry out the first Hive Voluntary Service project and pay for everything in HBD without converting to PLN.

So youre using it to pay with Bitcoin? The lightning payments? Thats still available, not going anywhere as far as i know. Once more liquidity gets into pools the payments should be routed via our pools.

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Super excited about all of the things you guys are building! This is one of the only projects that is able to actually "save" Hive. Full support from my side

Thank you.❤️

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Nice but how is this regen...

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Unrelated to my previous comment so new comment:

The Fourth Protocol Ever to Do This

If 3 other chains have done that wouldn't it be faster/easier/cheaper/safer to fork them? I know THORchain has had multiple hacks, took them years to get where they are and being the fourth doesn't give it very good odds. Wouldn't forking keeping HBD as settlement be an alternative? Why build from scratch? I ask that because I am unfamiliar with all the development behind Magi and VSC, but why build from scratch rather than forking?

Those other chains seem to have already solved the distributed key generation, the multi-round signing ceremonies, the key rotation and all in and in between that. Their chains are open source, and are being tested by real adversaries with real (and aA LOT OF)money on the line, if there are vulnerabilities or bottlenecks on magi it will take years before there is enough liquidity to make it worth attacking it not because they would not have found it but because attackers find it and wait for the "jackpot" to grow large enough.

Stupid of me and clever if Magi is already built off a fork of something already existing and tested, but if it is built from scratch then it raises yet more risks for the business.

Swaps are large portion of our features and revenue model but they are not our only offering. Our main competitors are focused solely on this functionality, mainnet to mainnet swaps across major chains.
Magi is fundamentally built differently, allowing for custody of all of our supported tokens in any of our supported wallets (such as holding BTC on Magi in an EVM wallet), allowing for feeless (RC based) transfers of these assets on Magi.

We in many ways evolved whats possible with trustless crosschain tech far beyond what other crosschain protocols considered doing.

Our goal is not only to provide a convenient swap interface, but also to simplify onboarding by allowing users to interact with our full feature set easily from any wallet.
We used Thorchain code heavily as reference but did not fork it, that would have created a multitude of integration issues.

They did a lot of heavy lifting and made mistakes, basically for us to learn from and not repeat.

Ill give you an example of a killer payment app idea we will develop in a few months that's solely possible due to our Native asset mapping tech i mention here.
Would basically allow anyone to make payments in any cryptocurrency (we integrate) they own, with whatever wallet the coins/tokens are in to any merchant without the merchant needing to do anything.

This abstracts:

  1. Any need to use a specific blockchain
  2. Any need for user to download any app
  3. Any need for merchant to download anything.

This is the idea we are currently sitting on. Basically solves all problems all crypto payment systems have. Its all trustless and would not require us to run anything at all.
So yeah, theres so many things we enable its hard to even put into text here. @igormuba

for western countries too?

Yes. It doesnt matter at all what country you are in.

This sounds game changing

I do strongly believe so myself

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